The Batman / Ep. 196
On Episode 196 of the Always the Critic Podcast, we solve riddles with the bat and the cat on our review of The Batman, starring Robert Pattinson, Zoë Kravitz, Colin Farrell, Andy Serkis, and Paul Dano.
Rico and Jess talk through the latest iteration of the caped crusader, talking through director Matt Reeves’s vision, the deep and affecting themes, the best sequences, Kravitz’s Catwoman, comparisons to previous Batman movies, and so much more.
If you liked this episode, then maybe check out…
The Dark Knight 10th Anniversary Episode
Summer Superlatives: Superheroes with JAKE CHRISTIE / Ep. 115
Top 10 Last 10 / Ep. 145
Zack Snyder's Justice League / Ep. 146
For episodes with similar movies, click below
Listen To Us!
Follow us!
Episode Transcription: The First 30 Minutes
Rico [00:00:11]I'm Rico. [0.3s]
Jess [00:00:11]And I'm Jessica. [0.9s]
Rico [00:00:13]And this is the Always The Critic podcast where a couple of friends review the latest movies, except we literally have zero qualifications to do so. Jessica, how are you doing today? [7.7s]
Jess [00:00:21]I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking. We tried HelloFresh today. [3.8s]
Rico [00:00:26]Hey, that that's something new. [1.5s]
Jess [00:00:28]And I thought, Oh, whatever the box got here, it had three meals in it. It's like our trial, and it was fucking delicious. I was like, this is like restaurant quality food. It was like, super good. [11.3s]
Rico [00:00:40]I've heard good things about HelloFresh, but the prices always scared me off. [3.8s]
Jess [00:00:45]Yeah, we like to eat out a lot. So I think my sis said like, Oh, if it's three meals a week for two people--because you can do like two or four, like however many servings, that it was like 58 bucks. And then we split it. We split everything right, like groceries and everything. So it to be 27 dollars or something for like a week or three nights of food, [23.5s]
Rico [00:01:10]Three nights of food. So yeah. [0.9s]
Jess [00:01:11]So we were like, Oh, that's not bad! [0.7s]
Rico [00:01:12]That's not bad. Nine dollars a meal, which is not bad. And especially you would spend more when you go out. [6.1s]
Jess [00:01:19]Exactly. We'd spend more if we went out instead of cooking those HelloFresh meals. But anyway, that's, you know, we're not sponsored by HelloFresh, but HelloFresh, if you're listening, sponsor your girl. [11.5s]
Rico [00:01:33]So that sounds like a fun evening. I woke up with a terrible back. [5.7s]
Jess [00:01:40]Yes. What'd you say? You just slept wrong? [0.8s]
Rico [00:01:43]I just slept wrong. That's all it was and I had to put, you know, like, those icy hot pads, and I had to take Advil because like just moving in certain directions hurt. [12.4s]
Jess [00:01:56]Oh my gosh. [0.4s]
Rico [00:01:57]Yeah, man. Don't get old, guys. Do not get old.[1.2s]
Jess [00:02:00]You're not that old, though! [0.9s]
Rico [00:02:01]I know this is as I'm approaching 35, you know, in a matter of a few weeks, pretty much so. Craziness, craziness. But let's go ahead and let's actually get started on what we're going to talk about today. There is a brand new movie out. [15.0s]
Jess [00:02:18]It's the movie of the weekend. [0.7s]
Rico [00:02:19]I guess it is. I guess some people have seen it, I guess. But before we actually get started about talking about it, if this is your first time listening, go ahead and subscribe on your first on your favorite podcast app. We're on Apple Podcasts, we're on Spotify, we're on Google Podcasts and many more. And if you do like us, go ahead and give us a review on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify. You can give us five star reviews on those. Those go a long way for us. [25.4s]
Jess [00:02:45]Come and check us out on social media to stay up to date on our latest episodes and reviews, you can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @alwayscriticpod. And if you're a fan, please, please consider becoming a patron. It's a great way for you to get involved and share your support. You can check out the page on Patreon.com/AlwaysCriticPod. [15.3s]
Rico [00:03:03]Today we are going back to Gotham City, as we are going to talk about The Batman. This is the latest iteration of the Caped Crusader. We have seen this character played by many actors, and now we have a new version of this. Before we get started, really quick. The Letterboxd synopsis reads: In his second year of fighting crime, Batman uncovers corruption in Gotham City that connects to his own family while facing a serial killer known as The Riddler. Jessica, tell us a little more details about this movie. [35.8s]
Jess [00:03:39]Sure, it's directed by Matt Reeves and also written by Matt Reeves and Peter Craig. Peter Craig is... Not the creator, Bill Finger. Do I have that right? [11.1s]
Rico [00:03:51]That's correct. Bill Finger, creator of the Batman. [1.5s]
Jess [00:03:53]Created the character. So he's on there as well. It stars Robert Pattinson, Zoe Kravitz, Paul Dano, Colin Farrell, and Andy Serkis. Robert Pattinson has had a very infamous career because he started out as a vampire, and actually he started out in Harry Potter. [22.1s]
Rico [00:04:16]Yeah, that that's where I think most people know him first and foremost. Yes. [4.5s]
Jess [00:04:21]And he has had a wild career so far, playing what he terms as freaks. [4.1s]
Rico [00:04:27]Yes, he has. Like if you look at his career, it's a weird career. But I would say an interesting career. [6.0s]
Jess [00:04:34]Very interesting. [0.4s]
Rico [00:04:35]Very interesting. [0.4s]
Jess [00:04:36]I would have never pegged him to be interested in playing Batman. [3.1s]
Rico [00:04:40]Neither would I. [0.5s]
Jess [00:04:41]And neither did his team. And when the team was like, Hey, did you want to do this? He was like, Yes, sign me up. I want to audition. I want to do Batman. They were like, Oh, weird, because we were just looking at like freaks for you to play. And he was like, Yeah, he is a freak. [17.5s]
Rico [00:04:59]The Batman is a freak. So this movie did very well at the box office, $134 million domestically. That is a very good start for a movie like this, especially with when most movies struggle right now at the box office, this is doing very well. 258 million worldwide. It has an 85 percent critic score and an 89 percent audience score. So the critics, as a consensus, reads: A grim, gritty and gripping super noir. The Batman ranks among the dark knight's bleakest and most thrillingly ambitious live action outings. So with all the preamble out of the way, Jessica, what did you think of The Batman? [47.2s]
Jess [00:05:48]I found it very good. I think that I didn't have any expectations, mostly because I don't really care. I have no skin in the game. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not like, Oh, I hope this is good. Oh my God. Like, no, I have no special feelings toward the character Batman. I genuinely love The Dark Knight, and that's pretty much it. Like, if I had to rewatch the Nolan trilogy, I would be like, Ugh, until I got to The Dark Knight. [30.8s]
Rico [00:06:21]I gotcha. [0.8s]
Jess [00:06:22]I think of many months ago, actually, we did a movie blindspots episode where I said that I had watched Batman 1989 for the first time, and I was like, This is awful. Like, I just didn't like it at all. So I have mixed feelings toward Batman and the franchise. Obviously ben Affleck is the most recent Batman, and I had terrible feelings toward his movies. This movie is very artistic and very moody and dark. Just like the critics consensus says. It's grim, gritty, gripping and the I think and the theater I turn to you guys and I said four letters--N-O-I-R because it is straight up noir. [47.1s]
Rico [00:07:11]Yes, it is. [0.4s]
Jess [00:07:13] If someone's like, what's noir? This is noir. It's really obsessed with, you know, crime and kind of like the human condition in like this dark, really depressing Gotham City. I think that sometimes Gotham is portrayed as just like any other city. And in this case, I feel like the Gotham is pretty scary. Like, I'm like, OK, I feel the threat, you know? [33.4s]
Rico [00:07:47]Yeah, you feel the threat, I get it.[2.0s]
Jess [00:07:49] I love the cinematography. I loved the score. Michael Giacchino, like just coming in hot with it, giving it the Hans Zimmer treatment. And I would say that I was pleasantly surprised by Rob's-- I'm on a first name basis with Robert Pattinson--with Rob's portrayal as Bruce Wayne, I think that he played it slightly different than other Batmans. I think that it's tough because we've had so many Batmen. For him to find a gap and be like, Oh, no one's done this before, so I'll try this. [35.5s]
Rico [00:08:25]Yeah, it's rare to find that. [1.1s]
Jess [00:08:26]Super rare. So I think he did the best with what he could do regarding what others hadn't touched yet. And I think it is very much playing into this like recluse, introverted, tortured individual and like this is drawing major parallels to me with his character in Twilight. [24.2s]
Rico [00:08:51]Yes, it is. It does feel that way. [2.9s]
Jess [00:08:54]It feels like if Edward Cullen was Batman, this would be his Batman. [5.6s]
Rico [00:09:01]Yeah, I kind of agree with you on that. [2.0s]
Jess [00:09:03]Because he's like playing it very seriously. Stakes are extremely high. He's not getting much sleep and like, he's just kind of jaded, but at the same time, a little bit like hopeful. [16.2s]
Rico [00:09:21]I know what you mean. [0.9s]
Jess [00:09:22]Ever, so slightly, hopeful. I don't think that this movie is for everybody. [7.4s]
Rico [00:09:31]I will agree with you on that. I don't think it is for everyone. [2.7s]
Jess [00:09:34]It's extremely long and I would say that's my major complaint is that the movie is three hours long. They probably could have cut some stuff out. [8.9s]
Rico [00:09:44]And that is so, just so I could jump in here real quick... [3.6s]
Jess [00:09:48]I feel like I'll just keep rambling. So what are your thoughts on The Batman? [3.8s]
Rico [00:09:53]I think this is a very good movie. I think that there are a lot of comparisons that people can make and very valid ones, as in what kind of movie it feels like. You can kind of compare it to the movie Se7en by David Fincher. You can draw resemblances of Zodiac, also by David Fincher. There's a theme. [23.9s]
Jess [00:10:17]Um, you know what? I'll jump in here and say that this movie was affected tremendously, in my opinion, from the gritty Joker movie that came out a few years ago. I feel like if that Joker movie did badly at the box office, we would not have this version of Batman. [16.8s]
Rico [00:10:35]Oh, OK, I see what you're saying. [1.3s]
Jess [00:10:36]Truly like that movie is like the spiritual-- [1.2s]
Rico [00:10:39]Kind of left the door open to this? Predecessor?[1.4s]
Jess [00:10:41]Yeah, predecessor to this movie. [3.6s]
Rico [00:10:45]Oh, OK, I can see where you're going with that, because that movie does have a very bleak and very cynical view.[3.5s]
Jess [00:10:52]Exactly. And that's what this movie is, as well as the running theme of like, you get what you fucking deserve. [5.7s]
Rico [00:10:59]Right? I see what you're saying in this movie. [2.8s]
Jess [00:11:03]Which they almost said as much in the version of The Batman. [2.2s]
Rico [00:11:08]Right. So I really enjoy Pattinson. I think Pattinson, like you said, does bring a new energy to Bruce Wayne because I think Batman, for the most part, I think a lot of them kind of handle Batman. And by them, I mean, like Keaton, Bale, and now Pattinson kind of hold Batman in this, you know, very stoic type of way. For the most part, that's how Batman is portrayed by them, right? Um, but the Bruce Wayne's are completely different among those three, and Pattinson's, it almost does not feel like he's trying to hide himself when he when he's Bruce Wayne. You know, it does feel like it's just an extension of Batman. [45.2s]
Jess [00:11:54]Yes, and he was rarely Bruce Wayne in the movie. He was pretty much always dressed up as Batman. [8.6s]
Rico [00:12:03]Yeah, that's one thing that's surprising.[1.4s]
Jess [00:12:05]Which is a huge difference from other movies where they try and even it out. There is so much Batman in this movie. [3.7s]
Rico [00:12:09]Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of Batman in this movie. There is. So the performances I thought were very good. I really enjoyed Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman. I love the energy she brought to the movie. She is fantastic as that character, as Selina Kyle. [15.2s]
Jess [00:12:25]I'll go so far as to say this is the best chemistry that I've seen from like a Catwoman versus Batman. [6.3s]
Rico [00:12:32]Catwoman, Batman?[0.5s]
Jess [00:12:33]I love their chemistry. [1.4s]
Rico [00:12:35]Yeah, it's great chemistry, don't get me wrong. [1.7s]
Jess [00:12:37]Amazing! They're just like sizzling on screen and they're not all over each other. They didn't have sex. Like, there's nothing, no physicality to be like, Oh my god, no. They were just eating each other up, like they're vibing, their bodies and everything. It's good chemistry. [18.0s]
Rico [00:12:56]Yeah. No, it's very good. I think that Serkis. I don't know if we had just quite enough to, like, make a good assessment of whether or not he's a good Alfred Pennyworth. I think that he does provide some good, you know, advice towards Bruce. And there is one scene, though, that does make an impact on Bruce himself that I think was very good. But I still think that I would need to see a little bit more to really evaluate how good of an Alfred he is. Still a good performance, but just as Alfred and then we got our other villains here that we need to talk about. And let's start first with Colin Farrell. He is--. [46.2s]
Jess [00:13:43]Unrecognizable. [0.0s]
Rico [00:13:43]Unrecognizable as the Penguin. I think that he probably has the most standout moments because of just what he's doing with the character. The character feels almost like a farce versus everyone else in this movie. He stands out when he talks, when he does his mannerisms like he is very like out there with his performance. But it's very good. It's gives the movie some light and some levity just for brief moments that we need, just because of how silly he can sometimes say things or or his mannerisms. So I really appreciated that from Colin Farrell. And then the big one was Paul Dano as The Riddler. The character is very...Scary is kind of the word I want to use. [60.0s]
Jess [00:14:44]I think he's unnerving. [0.6s]
Rico [00:14:44]Unnerving. Yes. [1.9s]
Jess [00:14:47]And I mean, you want that right in a Batman villain that's in a super noir as the critics consensus said. Paul Dano is like the go-to guy for like, if you want like a weird dude in your movie, you grab Paul Dano. [18.1s]
Rico [00:15:05]That is that dude. Like if you've seen Prisoners, if you've seen even in something light like Little Miss Sunshine, like he's still the weird dude in that. And now he is the Riddler. And I found it a very captivating performance, even though it's like unnerving and you're just feeling uncomfortable sometimes with what he's doing with the character. But it's effective. It's very effective. So there's other characters that we could talk about. [34.0s]
Jess [00:15:40]So I'm going to say one more thing about Paul Dano. It's that they seem to want to go the route of Heath Ledger. [7.0s]
Rico [00:15:48]Yeah, they kind of want to go that dark route.[1.9s]
Jess [00:15:50]Almost to its detriment because it's a very good performance. I'm not taking anything away from it, but it did seem like they were leaning more into the mental illness aspect and. Like, yeah, that leads into some of the scenes that we'll talk about in spoilers, but... I don't know if it was a positive or negative, because I almost like the chaos and anarchy of a person who's not necessarily mentally ill, has all of his faculties like Heath Ledger's Joker. And then Paul Dano's like a mentally ill person, literally like making up a story in his head and... I don't know, like I don't know if I like that. [49.4s]
Rico [00:16:41]Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. So really quick about the plot itself. I think that the movie does a really good job, this is one good thing about the runtime is, is that it allows moments and certain plot beats to breathe a little bit. So it kind of weaves the story, and it's not like it feels rushed. That's one good. Like, that's a positive. But again, a negative part of that is that because the runtime is so long, there are things that as a viewer, I kind of feel like could have been shortened up, could have been explained a little bit, you know, easier or, you know, simpler to cut down the time because sitting there for almost three hours. There are moments where you can you can feel the three hours just because it is methodically paced, there moments that are very deliberately slow. And you know, and it's because Matt Reeves has a vision for this Batman, for this Gotham that he needs to get out there for people who are watching. So it's it's a two edged sword. It's a double edged sword of, yes, the runtime. It feels long. But at the same time, there are some benefits to that because it allows the plot to breathe a little bit. [87.4s]
Jess [00:18:09]I would agree with that, although again, there could have been some cuts made. This movie didn't have a ton of action. And I didn't miss the action. Like what it had. I was like, Yeah, like, that's fire, it's good. But as far as a constant like every 15 minutes, there needs to be an action piece. No, that was not the case for this at all. He is playing a detective role. [28.5s]
Rico [00:18:40]So this is this was my biggest thing. I have been waiting for a detective story out of Batman for years. Every movie. And every movie, I'm disappointed. Like, where is the detective aspect? Because that is what kind of separates him from being just a regular vigilante. It's not just about him just beating up criminals. That's it. No, like he is intelligent. Like, he is incredibly intelligent and he uses that intelligent side of his persona to be able to figure out things and be able to be a step ahead of the police force and detectives because he's that good of a detective by himself. And we never really got that in any of the other movies, except now we finally have it. We finally have a story that feels like, Oh, this guy is figuring it out, and he's kind of figuring it out ahead of everyone else, and he has someone to go toe to toe with, you know, at the mental level with a character like Riddler who is pushing him. [66.8s]
Jess [00:19:47]I would agree, and I would say that in other movies, especially like the Nolan ones, Batman really relies on tech to kind of solve some things for him and push the plot forward with certain reveals. And in this case, I feel like the tech is not solving anything for him. [20.4s]
Rico [00:20:09]It actually is something that he uses. [2.7s]
Jess [00:20:11]It's a tool, not a tool to like, take all of his computing out of it, his own computing out of it. It's a tool to like, Oh, I'm going to be in control of what the tech does. And like, Oh, I'm going to tell it to do this, you know? [17.5s]
Rico [00:20:29]Yeah, the tech is working for me as I am telling it, Hey, this is what I'm trying to figure out, type of thing. So that was very good. Um, now there's so much we could talk about in spoilers, but there's one more thing that I just want to mention, and that is the third act as a whole, because superheroes are notorious for having a bad third act or, you know, third act that doesn't really make sense or that is full of CGI and stuff. How did you feel about the general sense of the third act in this movie? [38.1s]
Jess [00:21:08]Gentle third act. [0.9s]
Rico [00:21:10]Gentle, OK. [0.8s]
Jess [00:21:12]And I liked it. I mean, it's hard for me because I wish I had more of like a concrete reaction where I was like, Oh my God, it was the best thing ever, I loved it! And I didn't, I was just like, Oh, it's really good. This third act was good, it didn't have an end-all be-all one-on-one fight. It was, you know, he saves people, and then I think this third act instead of it being, he saves people and then leaves the scene, batman stays on the scene and is very visible to the citizens of Gotham. And I think that's very important because--I think you said that it shows him more as a hero. And I agree. Like, that's a good thing. [47.3s]
Rico [00:22:00]That's a very good thing. [0.6s]
Jess [00:22:02]Him interacting with the people that he's protecting and saving is a huge difference between this Batman and other Batmans who might save the day, but then they don't really kind of stick around for the nitty gritty of recovery. [17.8s]
Rico [00:22:23]Exactly, so. Yeah. Before we say anything else, I think we're in a good spot to be able to go into spoilers, but before we do, let's go ahead and give our grades for The Batman. So as most people, if you've been listening to us, we changed our our grading scale. We actually use a letter grade now. So A, B, C, D, F. And Jessica, what did you give the Batman? [23.6s]
Jess [00:22:47]B+. [0.0s]
Rico [00:22:47]B+? Very good. I gave it an A-minus Yeah, we're very close. We're very close. So that should speak to the quality of what we see. And now we can kind of get into the nitty gritty of what we truly liked or what we found lacking. So let's go ahead and let's talk about spoilers for The Batman right after this. [24.2s]
Rico [00:23:31]All right, let's talk about spoilers for The Batman. [2.8s]
Jess [00:23:36]Where do you want to start, homey? [2.0s]
Rico [00:23:39]I think what we should do is start with the the crux of why everything is happening in this movie and why the Riddler is doing what he's doing. I think we should start there and then kind of work our way. So the main crux of the movie is the Riddler kind of outing all these politicians and government officials and how corrupt they are. And it all leads back to one specific person, and that is Thomas Wayne. Because of actions that he took involving the mob, Carmine Falcone, who is played by John Turturro in this movie because of actions that he took it led to him being compromised and not only being compromised, but it led to his eventual death. So it's an interesting take to show the Waynes, Thomas and Martha not be as that incorruptible force that they've always been shown as before.[68.6s]
Jess [00:24:48]Right, they've been super righteous. [1.8s]
Rico [00:24:51]Yeah, like they're the perfect people. But this movie does show a flaw. That because of Thomas Wayne's political aspirations, they tried to do a cover up of the family legacy. And it involves, this was another thing, this is something that becomes--I didn't know this one. This is something I didn't know. Is that Martha Arkham? [23.8s]
Jess [00:25:16]Yeah. [0.0s]
Rico [00:25:17]And so Martha apparently was someone who is mentally ill and had to go to an asylum multiple times. And the threat of that information getting out to the public by one specific reporter was going to compromise the whole election. And so Thomas Wayne turns to Carmine Falcone. I'm going to, by the way, I am going to say Falcone, because that is how it's pronounced in every other iteration. For some reason in this one, they decide safe Falcone, like Al Capone. And I don't know why, because in every other iteration, it's Falcone. [34.9s]
Jess [00:25:52]I guess because of, do you know, why? I think it's because they were trying to go for that riddle with the Falcon. That's the worst riddle actually.[5.4s]
Rico [00:26:03]It was a bad riddle. [0.3s]
Jess [00:26:04]That was a bad riddle. [0.5s]
Rico [00:26:05]The other ones were good. But but this one was bad. So I really found that that's an interesting take. Hey, let's paint the Waynes this famous for almost 80 years, sufferers of the crime in the city, who have always been viewed as the most upright citizens, and because they live in the real world, corruption could possibly happen. Someone who's that rich could have connections with someone in the mob or could be trying to cover up something. Now, covering up that the wife was mentally ill and went to mental asylums? [39.5s]
Jess [00:26:46]Her mom, Martha's mom, killed her husband. And that was hush hush as well. The Arkhams are like a mess![11.7s]
Rico [00:26:58]Yeah, the Arkhams are a mess. Thomas Wayne's trying to keep it covered. [2.1s]
Jess [00:27:01]Thomas was trying to cover it. Which was funny, not funny, but you know, entertaining.[5.3s]
Rico [00:27:07]That was interesting because it just makes you think, huh? So the Waynes own so much of Gotham plus at the same time, there's Arkham Asylum. So like, they're like [10.7s]
Jess [00:27:19]When they said, Ah, Martha Arkham, I was like, Esperate. [2.1s]
Rico [00:27:22]I'm sorry. And then they like, reiterate just in case, like, you didn't catch it the first time. You know, the Waynes and the Arkhams and it's like, whoa! [7.1s]
Jess [00:27:30]That's when I turned to you, and I was like, what? [1.1s]
Rico [00:27:33]I kind of had to do a double take, too, because I never realized, unless this is like something new for this story, I would have to go back to check. But I never put the fact that Martha was part of Arkham, and I didn't feel like Arkham was a family legacy to build an asylum around. That is not where I went with that, but this could be something that Reeves wrote for this particular story. And using Arkham Asylum as a way of like the mentally ill, to be able to play around with that story. So I found that to be interesting. Now let's work our way backwards here. The Riddler and his riddles, one was bad, which was the Falcone, el rata... [45.9s]
Jess [00:28:19]The half-assed Spanish [1.0s]
Rico [00:28:22]Yeah, el rata alada. The winged rat. Which it was obvious from the beginning, it's a bat![10.5s]
Jess [00:28:33]I thought that was Batman from the get-go. I was like, Oh bat, Batman.[1.3s]
Rico [00:28:35]Yeah, they were kind of dancing round it with other types of birds, a stool pigeon. Oh, wait, a penguin. [7.7s]
Jess [00:28:43]They kept saying stool pigeon. If I had a nickel for every time they said stool pigeon in this movie. [2.5s]
Rico [00:28:45]Yeah, it was like what? and then eventually they landed on Falcone, like a falcon. And it's like, No! [6.4s]
Jess [00:28:52]Well, they went to Penguin and then we got some good penguin action. [2.6s]
Rico [00:28:55]Yeah, we did. [0.3s]
Jess [00:28:57]And then they went to Falcone.[2.5s]
Rico [00:29:01]Before he realized, wait a minute, winged rat, a bat, a bat. It's so obvious. So obvious. All right. So here, here is a question that I want to ask you, and I want to know if if you agree with me here. So once the Riddler has been captured, he's in jail and he has his confession moment. [20.1s]
Jess [00:29:22]We have another face-off Dark Knight style between the villain, in this case, The Riddler, and Batman. [7.9s]
Rico [00:29:32]Did you think The Riddler knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman? [3.9s]
Jess [00:29:37]Yes. Well, up until that point, 100 percent, yes. I thought that he knew they were one in the same. [5.0s]
Rico [00:29:42]It really felt like he knew. [1.8s]
Jess [00:29:45]They really bamboozled us on that one. [1.5s]